Pioneering Hemp in Africa: Insights from South Africa's Hemp Leaders Welcome back to the Let's Talk Hemp podcast, Volume Up! I'm your host, Morris Beagle, and today we're diving into the vibrant hemp and cannabis scene in Cape Town, South Africa. After an enriching experience at the Kenya Hemp Conference, I spent nearly three weeks in Cape Town, exploring the local industry and meeting some incredible people.
Welcome back to the Let's Talk Hemp podcast, Volume Up! I'm your host, Morris Beagle, and today we're diving into the vibrant hemp and cannabis scene in Cape Town, South Africa. After an enriching experience at the Kenya Hemp Conference, I spent nearly three weeks in Cape Town, exploring the local industry and meeting some incredible people.
I had the pleasure of staying at the Hemp Hotel, the tallest hemp structure in the world, with my colleague Paul Benham from the Hemp Plastic Company. The hotel used over 60 tons of hemp in its construction, offering a unique and sustainable experience. Hemporium, a hemp retail shop located in the same building, has been a pioneer in the industry since 1996. Tony Budden, the founder, shared insights into the versatility of hemp and the importance of creating a sustainable market.
Tony Budden, Hemporium: Tony discussed the challenges and opportunities in the hemp industry, emphasizing the need for local hemp genetics and the potential of biophilic design in creating natural living spaces.
Trenton Birsch, Chiba Africa Hemp and Cannabis Training Academy: Trenton's academy is a government-approved and accredited school, providing essential training in hemp and cannabis cultivation.
Natie Ferreira, Daga Pharmacy Cannabis Farms: Natty, an ornamental horticulturist and agronomist, shared his expertise in hemp and cannabis genetics, highlighting the importance of local adaptation for successful cultivation.
Tanya Clarke, Invigrow: Tanya, who recently relocated from Malawi, has been a significant player in the hemp and cannabis industry. She discussed the regulatory landscape and the potential for regional markets in Africa.
South Africa is making strides with new regulations, including a proposed 2% THC limit, which is more lenient than the current 0.2-0.3% in Europe and the US. This change could significantly benefit local farmers and the industry as a whole.
The conversations I had in Cape Town were enlightening and inspiring. The local industry is poised for growth, with a strong focus on sustainability and innovation. I look forward to spending more time in South Africa and continuing to amplify the message of hemp's potential.
A big thank you to our sponsor, Her Many Voices, a platform where grassroots activism meets indigenous wisdom to benefit all of Earth's inhabitants. Visit them at hermanyvoices.org
TIME STAMPS:
00:00:00 - Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:45 - Cape Town Experience
00:01:27 - NoCo Hemp Expo Announcement
00:01:38 - Cape Town Highlights
00:02:09 - The Hemp Hotel
00:02:20 - Hemporium Store Overview
00:03:13 - Interviews with Industry Leaders
00:03:34 - Introduction to Cape Town Tapes
00:03:46 - Hemporium Store Tour
00:04:19 - Tony Budden Introduction
00:04:34 - Hemporium's Mission
00:05:16 - Industry Challenges and Opportunities
00:05:59 - Relocation to Hemp Hotel
00:06:10 - Hemp Hotel Features
00:07:03 - Biophilic Design Concept
00:07:39 - Global Hemp Industry Insights
00:08:00 - 2% THC Regulation
00:09:37 - Pioneering Hemp Regulations
00:10:39 - Paul Benham's Commentary
00:11:12 - Addressing THC Creep
00:12:05 - Local vs. Imported Varieties
00:13:08 - Building a Regional Market
00:14:01 - Sustainable Industry Goals
00:16:01 - Invitation to Cape Town
00:16:26 - Future of Hemp Regulations
00:17:08 - End Use Focus
00:18:03 - Learning from Global Experiences
00:18:13 - Interview with Tanya Clark
00:19:01 - Tanya's Background and Malawi Experience
00:19:38 - Cannabis and Essential Oils in Malawi
00:20:11 - Industrial Hemp Trials and Lobbying
00:21:17 - Cannabis Regulatory Authority in Malawi
00:22:03 - Medical and Industrial Cannabis in Malawi
00:22:49 - Cannabis Regulatory Framework
00:23:43 - Business Lines and Market Testing
00:24:38 - Regional and Global Market Expansion
00:25:11 - Relocation to Cape Town
00:26:28 - Cape Town's Appeal
00:26:43 - Operating in South Africa
00:27:04 - African Agenda on Global Stage
00:27:15 - Successful Models and Challenges
00:28:01 - Quality Standards and Regulations
00:28:22 - Regional Trade and Market Expansion
00:29:08 - Collaboration with U.S. and Africa
00:30:05 - 2% THC Regulation Impact
00:30:47 - Traditional Healing and Plant Medicine
00:31:08 - Inter-Africa Trade Potential
00:32:06 - Traditional Healing Elements
00:32:41 - Recruiting for Africa
00:33:24 - Interview with Nattie Ferreira
00:34:24 - Nattie's Background and Daga Pharmacy
00:35:09 - South Africa's Cannabis Rights
00:35:30 - Community and Grower Support
00:36:36 - Farm Tour and Land Sharing
00:38:00 - Nursery and Genetic Varieties
00:39:00 - Early CBD Genetics
00:40:06 - Chinese and Vietnamese Hemp Varieties
00:41:09 - Registration and Trials
00:42:00 - THC Compliance and Local Conditions
00:43:00 - End Use Focus for Hemp Products
00:44:01 - THC Remediation Technology
00:45:00 - Disruptive Potential of Higher THC Limits
00:46:00 - Regulatory Challenges and Opportunities
00:47:00 - Future of Hemp Industry
00:48:08 - Patriotism and Land Diversity
00:49:03 - Political Support and Activism
00:49:36 - Interview with Trenton Birch
00:50:01 - Johannesburg's Climate and Potential
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Welcome back, my friends, to the show that never ends. You are listening to the Let's Talk Hemp podcast. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to Let's Talk Hemp, Volume Up, the podcast where we dive into the latest developments, innovations, and opportunities in the global hemp industry. I'm your host, Morris Beagle, and today we're taking you to Cape Town, South Africa, where I ended up for almost three weeks after leaving Kenya, where the Kenya Hemp Conference took place on January 20th. Before we get going, I want to mention that this podcast, and the Let's Talk Hemp Volume Up podcast series, is sponsored by our good friends at HerManyVoices. HerManyVoices.com, where the combination of grassroots activism with indigenous wisdom comes together to help all of Earth's inhabitants. Please visit their website and follow them on social media. You can also come out and meet Alicia Fall and her many voices at the upcoming 11th Annual NoCo Hemp Expo, taking place April 10th through the 12th in Estes Park, Colorado. And for more information on the event regarding tickets, exhibitions, sponsorship and programming, visit nocohempexpo.com. So my time in Cape Town and in South Africa was, simply put, incredible. What a gorgeous place with so many great people, amazing food, some of the best wine in the world, and of course, hemp and cannabis opportunities happening now and on the horizon. I got to stay for a week with my traveling colleague Paul Benham from the Hemp Plastic Company at 84 Harrington in Cape Town. The Hemp Hotel as it's known, an 11 story hotel that used over 60 tons of hemp in its construction and is officially the tallest hemp structure in the world. I highly recommend anyone traveling to Cape Town to stay there and check it out. Also located in that building is Hemporium, A hemp retail shop that has been in business since 1996 and has all kinds of cool hemp items including apparel, bags, food, cosmetics, CBD products, baskets, artwork, and more. Super awesome store and you will not be disappointed. In this episode, I talk with Tony Budden, founder of Hemporium and Global Hemp Pioneer, and a big shout out to Tony for connecting Paul and I to so many great people in South Africa while we were there. I also spoke with Trenton Bursch, founder of Chiba Africa Hemp and Cannabis Training Academy, which is a government-approved and accredited school, and again, super cool, great facility, and Trenton knows his way around this plant as well as anyone. I also spoke with Natty Ferreira from Daga Pharmacy Cannabis Farms, who is an ornamental horticulturist, agronomist, genetics and seed specialist, who has a wealth of knowledge about growing hemp and cannabis varieties. And finally, but not least, Tanya Clark from Invigrow, who recently relocated from Malawi to Cape Town, but who has also been in the hemp and cannabis industry, along with essential oils and other botanicals, for a very long time. It was wonderful to get to hang out, break bread, and talk shop with all of these fine people. So, sit back, stay tuned, and let's dive into the conversations that are shaping the future of industrial hemp in South Africa. This is the Cape Town Tapes. I am in Hemporium, Cape Town, South Africa. Hanging out with Paul Benham, Tony Budden, walking through the store. We got a short amount of time here to catch a little bit of content. Paul's shopping. He has to get his purchase in before he heads to Zimbabwe. And Tony's showing him some stuff going on here. See, this is where I was looking. You don't have any black shirts, man.
: Don't have any just plain black shirts. It is generally a winter color.
undefined: Yeah. So Tony, say hi to Let's Talk Camp.
: Good morning, Let's Talk Hemp. I'm a little bit hoarse because we've been talking hemp for the last three days and non-stops and soaking up with you and Paul, but really good to have you both in Cape Town, South Africa.
undefined: Yeah, so where are we at? We're in your hemp store here.
: Yeah, well, this is Hemporium. Next year is our 30th year in existence. We've been going since 1996 and we really just try to use the clothing and all the different products to spread the word around the plant and all the versatility. It's an amazing message taker and the people touching and feeling the plant. It's such a quick way to change someone's perspective of only knowing one version of cannabis to put a piece of hemp fabric in their hands and they go, oh, there's more. And that starts the whole wormhole, rabbit hole that we've been diving down for the last 30 years. Learning more, exploring more, figuring out, you know, not only what the plant can do, but how to help it do it. You know, like how to help the plant become accessible to people, that people can then use all these amazing products. So that's the challenge right now. We've all seen a lot of movement on farming, we've seen a market built, but we need to find the people who are going to make all of these products from the plant to the consumer or the market, the industrialists, the people that love processing and setting up factories and creating something from a raw material, turning that into into something that's usable. That's that's what we're seeing in the industry now, the missing link. Right.
undefined: So you recently relocated downtown here into the Hemp Hotel.
: Yep. What a place to be. I mean, to come and stay in the middle of the city surrounded by nature. All the wood in all this whole building was sourced within 50 kilometers of where we're standing. The hemp, unfortunately, still came from a lot further. But we're working on that. But just proof of concept and for people to come and stay in the in the building, experience what Hemkreet feels like, the sound insulation, you can't hear your neighboring room, just the general feeling of being surrounded by nature instead of most hotel rooms are surrounded by polyester and whatever, the plastic material is the most durable and cleanable. We've gone the other way here with trying to, especially here in the store, you'll see everything is wood and natural and just trying to present natural products in the natural environment and that's called the biophilic design. You're bringing nature into our lived experience and into our working experiences and into our homes. That's a part of design my wife studied and it's rubbing off on me. It's just like biophilia is the love of nature and attracting nature. So how do we attract nature into our lives? By creating spaces where it wants to come in. That's not just in the materials we use but in the way we work with light, The way we work with plants, the way we work with just general flow of not insulating ourselves from nature but actually embracing a more natural lifestyle. That's beautiful. Thank you.
undefined: You said that very well. Well, I appreciate you setting me and Paul up in the penthouse on the 11th floor. It's like this is the tallest hemp structure in the world at this point in time.
: This is. We're hoping that it's going to inspire a whole lot of others. You know, as you can see, we're a long way from Europe. We're a long way from the States. We're a long way from Australia. So we often feel like we're working in isolation down here. But we've also had amazing achievements because of that, because we have to pioneer we have to find innovative ways of being noticed of of claiming some market share and from what I've heard from people who have traveled the world like you that we're doing a good job at that you know like making a statement of what is possible and you know you're creating the aspiration model for him you know that we don't want to We can't go in immediately as a cheap alternative just because of economies of scale. The industry needs to grow to that point where there's more than enough hemp available and the price comes down. At the moment we're still all clamouring for what little hemp textiles are available and the little hemp herd that we've got to bring in from mattress factories where we get the building material, the raw materials from. But when there's enough supply, we'll see that we can compete not only on price, but on cost, because that's the big thing. People need to understand price versus cost. At the moment, our products still seem to some people a little expensive when you compare it to cheap and nasty and the polyesters and that, but our true cost, the environmental cost of our products, is so much less. If you put a polyester shirt out in the landfill, it's there for the next couple of hundred, if not many more years. You put our hemp shirts out there, they're going to go back to being plant food within not even 10 years. That's the aim. So we've got to look at true costs of all of these products and educate the market, educate our consumers, and then work on creating a much bigger industry where we can get those economies of scale and get the prices down as well.
undefined: So when you talk about pioneering, one thing that has really inspired me since I've been out here, you've talked about the new regulations that are going to be coming into place. And you're going to be implementing 2% THC, whereas Europe is 0.3. You guys are 0.2 or 0.3 right now. 0.2 at the moment, which is ridiculous. Canada, US, everybody's 0.3. There's some places that are 1%, but you guys are going to 2%. And then you've also got your recreational cannabis model. There doesn't seem to be the division between cannabis and hemp like there is in the United States. But that 2% thing, to me, is like that's the true step in the right direction. Because when it all comes down to it, it should be end use. It doesn't matter what the THC is in the field. Why should a farmer have any liability? I mean, let nature do what it does. But tell us about how the 2% came about. And is that a real thing?
undefined: come to fruition and it's a true real thing.
: We've seen governmental documents and minutes from meetings saying that this is coming down the line and obviously everything can change right before any regulation gets promulgated or law gets made but what's driving that is
undefined: Is Paul taking off his clothes in front of us?
: Paul's trying on some lovely hemp. I'm trying on the best hemp clothing in the world. Some of it, I should say.
undefined: There are changing rooms, Mr. Benham. I'm listening to this conversation because it's important for the future of Africa and the future of the world to be sustained.
: Yeah, so what we've seen, obviously, many states in America, especially the hottest states, experience THC creep and the farmers being under pressure to to harvest early or to maybe have to destroy their crops because the THC goes above 0.3 or 0.2. And what we're realizing is farmers need choice. You can't be told that you can only grow these European varieties in the bottom of Africa because that's what the law says if you want to make it a commercially successful product. You have to choose the varieties that grow best in your region. And we're limiting farmers by bringing in the European varieties that are not acclimatized to here. They get burned, they get stunted, or they go hot because one of the reasons of the THC climate is a defense mechanism against environmental conditions. So we have lobbied the government to say, look, You're going to hamstring the local industry by doing that. We're not going to see the yields and the growth and the biomass that we need to really grow the local industry by limiting us to those 0.2 varieties that are coming out of Europe. We have to have access to the Chinese varieties, which are on the same latitude as us, or similar latitude. They're looking at upwards of 1%, some of them, but they grow so much better. Obviously, on the other side that we need to be cautious of is access to the markets where Do we have a situation where South African hemp products might have a lot higher trace amount of THC than they can't access the European market? So there are other considerations around having this higher THC level with being accepted as a hemp product, as you know. But I think what we're realizing, and you would have chatted to Tanya from Malawi, We need to build a regional market now. We cannot rely on export markets. And if the regional market says above 1% or 2% is acceptable, and that we can accept higher than 10 parts per million in our food, with knowing full well that it's never going to be psychoactive until a lot higher than that, and then through that create a sustainable industry. Sustainable and not just in, obviously hemp is touted as a sustainable crop, the way you grow it, the way you farm it, amount of products you can make, but if we're preaching sustainability, our industry needs to be sustainable. Our farmers need to be making money. The production needs to be making money and the marketers and the customers need to be getting a fair value product. That's true sustainability. And if limiting us to 0.2% is not going to get us there, then we have to change.
undefined: That's unsustainable.
: That's unsustainable. 0.2, 0.3 is unsustainable, especially in hotter climates. But even when you look at latitudinal, colder climates can also create a change in the way the plant adapts. This plant is one of the most resilient and adaptable plants I've ever experienced. It grows everywhere from Norway to New Zealand and everywhere in between and it adapts to those climates, but it will change. So if we're saying you have to keep it like this the same way, the only way we do that is by importing seeds from Europe every year. We can't do that. We have to start growing, developing local hemp genetics and looking at local land races and what are their fibers like. And our land races are definitely higher than 0.2% here. Significantly. And they have good seeds and they have good fiber and we have to do that research as well. As the industry grows, we'll see we're forced into a certain amount of regulatory control because of the international treaties and international laws. But if we're creating a sustainable industry, we have to push for more rational regulations that work. If the governments are serious about promoting a hemp industry and serious about creating new jobs and houses and food sustainable livelihoods, they have to look at what the farmers and the industry are saying in that we need to not be limited. Give us a bit more free reign. You can see what we are growing for by how we're planting, what we're harvesting. Set the intentional model and not the THC control model when you're saying Are you a hemp farmer? Are you a medical farmer? Are you a rag farmer? It's how you plant, how you grow, not what necessary, what THC limits you have. So yeah, complex issue but we're going to push the envelope out here in Africa as we do so many times and it's good to know the world's watching and has noticed and we would just like to invite Everyone to come and experience what we've done down here. Come stay in the Hemp Hotel, come see the beautiful Table Mountain we went up yesterday. There's a lot of energy flowing in here now into Cape Town as a city and we're going to transmute that energy into good things for hemp and cannabis.
undefined: That's so awesome and I plan on spending a lot more time here and inviting other folks to come out and experience this area and I'm going to amplify the message of 2%. My goal and most people's goal is end use, get rid of these arbitrary 0.3, 1%, 2%, it's one plant. You're growing it for whatever the purpose is. You're growing it for fiber, you're growing it for grain, you're growing it for cannabidons, you're growing it for flour, whatever the end use is. Don't put the restriction on the farmer. Let nature run its course and this man-made interference and bureaucracy stuff.
undefined: is unsustainable. Yeah, and it will naturally right itself.
: The farmer who's growing for fiber, he will find the best variety. And whether that's a 5% or 10% or whatever, it has to be good for your end use.
undefined: All right.
: Well, thanks for your time, Tony. It is my pleasure. Thank you. visiting and bringing your energy and we also need that experience that you've seen around the world. The key now for the whole industry is to not make the mistakes that will set us back, to really start supporting each other with experience. Most of that experience has been learning what not to do. Now we need to find the way to do it right. There was a great hamster quote that came out in some of the conferences that came to the States, where it said, we don't need to do it right now, we need to do it right now. It doesn't have to happen immediately, we have to do it right. That's the challenge. We're slowing it down. We're looking at the best case, the case studies of success stories. We've had a lot of failures. We've had a lot of negative press around the things that haven't worked. Let's start amplifying those things that are working and those people that are doing the good work and showing the way.
undefined: And thank you for your work that you do in doing that. Thank you. It's been great. We'll do this again. I'll be spending a lot of time down here. You are welcome. All righty. Take care.
undefined: Sitting here in Cape Town with Tanya Clark from Invigro. How are you doing today?
undefined: Yeah, very well. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
undefined: Absolutely. Well, thanks for joining us here on Let's Talk Hemp. It's been great to get to know you. I wish I could have been hanging out a little bit longer out there.
undefined: Yeah, it's good fun. It's good fun. Summertime in Africa. It's, yeah, it's pretty beautiful. Great to meet you, man. We had some good time.
undefined: We did. Well, Paul Benham's been talking about you for a while. He says that you're his favorite person in Africa. Well, you and Tony. And now there's several others since we got to meet a whole bunch of people. Thanks to all of you out there. It's been great to get introduced to all the cool stakeholders because there's plenty of you out there, which is great.
undefined: Yep, we're definitely starting to make some strides, slowly but surely.
undefined: Yeah, so you're originally from Maui and recently relocated to Cape Town, so why don't you tell us about what you've done in Malawi and now what you're doing in Cape Town?
undefined: Yeah, well, I'm originally from the UK, but I've been living in Malawi for nearly 20 years. And I've got three companies in Malawi. Two are cannabis-based, and then one is a large plantation producing essential oils. So I'm very passionate about Africa, very passionate about Malawi. It's a very small country in the sort of southeastern Africa between Tanzania, Mozambique, and Zambia. And yeah, like small, small, but full of opportunities. A third of the country's freshwater. We've got some really amazing land for cultivation. It's a very kind of agricultural, horticultural place, you know, like the economy relies heavily on that, on those industries. And so, yeah, everybody is like kind of farming orientated. And yeah, we've been, you know, in 2013, we presented cannabis, mainly industrial hemp, to the government. And, you know, they were very kind of shocked and resistant at first. But then, you know, through my connections with my other company, the essential oil company, you know, we knew people in Ministry of Trade, you know, who could potentially kind of be allies for us. And yeah, I mean, that was a seven-year journey of lobbying, trials and research with the Ministry of Agriculture, showing industrial hemp strains under 1%, showing what could be produced from them. You know, we built a small hemp building, we were expanding hemp seed into oils, just to sort of showcase what could be done. And we successfully completed those trials, registered some strains, and then we finally managed to change the laws leading to the Cannabis Act of 2020. And that's our legal framework. We have the Cannabis Regulatory Authority, which is a parastatal that deals with all things hemp and cannabis, and we have super great relationships with them. They're often at my farm showcasing what hemp can do, bringing officials, bringing competitors, even though I don't believe that this is a competitive space. Yeah, and we've been super open. You know, we're in the business of trying to educate. We need farmers to grow grain. You know, we need government to be supportive and facilitating licenses and export permits and stuff. So, you know, it's got to be a tit for tat. And yeah, it's been a real journey, but 10 years in the space. And I really feel that Malawi has one of the most open regimes. in cannabis and hemp and cooperatives can get involved, companies, foreign companies, it's quite open, which I appreciate.
undefined: So when you talk about cannabis and hemp, are they really looking at this as all cannabis and then hemp is just like an offshoot of it, but that's really just a cannabis thing?
undefined: Well, it's the Cannabis Regulatory Authority. So all things cannabis, whether industrial or medical, are encapsulated in that. Recreational is not yet legal in Malawi and in most of Africa. It is quite, you know, Africa is still quite a conservative region. South Africa probably is at the forefront of kind of rec, medirec, as it were. But it is restricted to a certain number of plants per person. You know, you can't be caught dealing, you can't be caught selling. It's got to be kind of for personal consumption. So Malawi doesn't have that yet. We've got elections this year, so it might, you know, even if they weren't thinking of it, that will probably be a couple of years away. So in Malawi, it's very much medical and industrial. We started off in the industrial space and also then ventured into the medical cannabis space. and we use farmers to grow the grain and the stalk and then we grow the flowers on our own farm. So we're trying to access quite a number of different business lines and because we were at it for so long you know we had the balls basically to do that but obviously you know, to go into hemp foods, flowers, extracts, you know, like probably only a crazy person would do that. But because we were playing around with the plant for so long, we actually had an opportunity to learn and make products and, yeah, and test the market. And, you know, Malawians really are enjoying, people in Malawi are really enjoying our products. We're looking at quite an aggressive regional, you know, getting our products region wide. And predominantly getting medical cannabis out there to Europe, the usual suspects, Europe, Australia, et cetera, but also pushing for the regional medical cannabis space to open up. And yeah, I mean, I don't, I think that we're maybe a few, I mean, I think we're only a few years away from that. Yeah, so it's been, you know, we do have quite a number who are sort of different things that we do, but we do have a very Africa-focused vision.
undefined: And what led you to move to Cape Town?
undefined: Yeah, well, I've just made the move now, mainly for personal reasons. Yeah, it's a big thing for me. Like, after nearly 20 years in Malawi, I mean, I've got all my investments there. I'm going to be going back all the time. But yeah, it's for family, for kids, for education, for a bit of a lifestyle change. Malawi is going through some hard times right now. Post-COVID, I think a lot of developing nations, we know we're going to be impacted even worse than the wealthier countries. Obviously, with the new American administration withdrawing aid as well from countries like Malawi, that's impacted it hard. I won't go into a political commentary, but it's happened. So we just need to now pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and Yeah, and try and make the economic situation work. So I'm still very committed to that, even though I'm here in Cape Town, but I think I needed a lifestyle change as well. And it's pretty sweet.
undefined: Yeah, I love Cape Town. It was certainly gorgeous. I had no idea that it would be as awesome as it has been. Fell in love with it.
undefined: Yeah.
undefined: And who knows, I could be… Well, very welcome to Honeybuck. Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to coming back, hopefully sooner than later. And now, are you going to be operating quite a bit in South Africa with both hemp and the cannabis side?
undefined: Yeah, definitely. You know, I want to be, you know, kind of pushing the African agenda on the global stage. I'm in touch with most of the, you know, the sort of leaders pushing for it in the various, you know, the various industries and yeah, whatever I can do to help, you know, but I think the first thing is we need successful models of it working to draw on, because otherwise it's just talk, talk, talk. So that's what I want Invigro to be. I want Invigro and GenScore Africa, our genetics company, I want them to be beacons of hope. Models of something that's actually working in Africa, because what's going to happen in America, Canada, Europe, it's just going to be different in Africa. I need to make Indigo work, and we are getting there, but it's been wrought with challenges, as this industry always is. In the medical space, it's all very stringent, EU GMP rules and regulations, so we have to adhere to the quality, and I'm not prepared to go down on that just because we're in Africa. To compete, we have to do things well, and we're perfectly capable of doing things well. It just takes the commitment to doing it properly. So yeah, I think, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing how we can get Invigo's products down here to South Africa, into other parts of Mozambique, Tanzania, Zambia, and expanding. I'm already looking at fundraising for a standalone hemp foods facility. So, yeah, just got to crack on, keep building.
undefined: Well, you're doing a great job thus far and I see a lot of opportunities throughout Africa and with leaders like yourself that are kind of driving the bus there and if there can be some additional resources come in. Ideally, National Industrial Hemp Council, we're going to be spending time and resources out there to have some U.S. collaborations and hopefully Those will result in business being done between both areas, between the U.S. and the African countries that we're going to be working in. And looking forward to seeing what happens. Looking forward to seeing regulations get put in place in South Africa. I'm excited about the 2% THC limit that they're going to be instilling, which is better than any other place that's currently doing it. In the U.S., Canada, and Europe, we're at 0.3%. which is very restrictive on genetics and being able to really push the envelope when it comes to what can be done with the plant by having to just monitor this one molecule THC. I mean it's ridiculous when really everything should be done on the end-use side of things that can be accomplished in manufacturing and processing if it's human consumption and there needs to be zero THC or very little. Who cares what it is in the field and why put farmers at risk? Anyway, I think that that's a great, great starting point and hopefully that will inspire other areas of the world, Europe and the U.S. and Canada to take a better look at that because it shows that it's going to be a much better model. The European model, the U.S. model, Canadian model have been you know, rot with obstacles and hurdles and stuff for these industries. And, you know, we need to get past that and start living really in the 21st century and realizing that, hey, this 0.3% THC, why be scared of a molecule? A plant that's been grown for thousands and thousands of years and has co-evolved with humans and so forth. So hopefully we'll get past that, but who knows with the political climate in various parts of the world that we'll continue to try to hold it back.
undefined: The nice thing with Africa is that there's a fairly, through SADC trade agreements and COMESA, which is with East Africa, there is, in theory anyway, quite a free trade element and it's not quite so strict. Europe is quite well known for you know, being a little bit difficult sometimes on quality aspects, you know, and whether that's to do with keeping, you know, kind of protectionist policies or not, you know, who knows. But it is quite difficult to get, you know, African product out there to Europe unless they really, really, really want it. And then, you know, they'll be more flexible. It's not just cannabis here, it's anything. You know, I do it with my other companies, other products with my other companies. So, I'm actually looking forward to this inter-Africa trade, building up the usage and the interest in hemp foods and cosmetics. Africans regionally, they use the hemp seed oil extensively, or cannabis oil from the sea, extensively in hair treatments and skin treatments. It's already done, it's already there. And what I love about Africa is this, they're very comfortable with the traditional healing. elements. So that's very strong. It's not just a plain pharmaceutical culture here. Plants are widely respected, plants are widely used for medicinal purposes. And so at least we're not starting from such a foreign foundation. So that's quite refreshing as well in the cannabis space.
undefined: Yeah, I got to talking to several people out there and the whole healing aspect and the shamanism. Anthony Cohen, a Lixinol guy, has also got a dispensary. We had a really good breakfast and he kind of went into all the botanicals and the natural healing and the tradition side of it. And it was pretty amazing to hear all the different things that are being used out there and how natural medicine, plant medicine is just really a big part of the culture. I sure wish the Western world looked at that stuff a lot more closely instead of, you know, that's stuff where it's not proven, blah, blah, blah. You should just go to your doctor and get pharmaceuticals. And it's like, that's really not the answer to healing the body and the mind and the spirit and so forth. I really appreciate that about Africa. Another thing that draws me to maybe want to spend a lot more time out there.
undefined: We need good people.
undefined: I'm on a recruiting mission now to, hey, everybody, guess where we all need to end up. So we'll see what happens.
undefined: Awesome.
undefined: Anyway, I really appreciate the hospitality and getting to sit down with you and talk about this. And I wish you the best of luck. And if there's anything you need from my end, just let me know.
undefined: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, will do. And we look forward to seeing you here very soon.
undefined: Thank you. I'm sitting here with Nattie Ferreira. And what's the town that we're in?
undefined: We're in Paul. It means pool. All right. Because of the sun that shines in our mountains apparently in the afternoon. It looks like a pool.
undefined: And you're an agronomist? Yes.
undefined: My background is in ornamental horticulture, mostly running nurseries, landscaping, small scale agriculture, that industry. So I've been close to the plant most of my life. And yeah, recently, took my knowledge from ornamental horticulture and applied it to cannabis and built what is known as Daga Pharmacy which is a grow club and a nursery where we supply what we believe is some of the top genetics in South Africa to mostly home growers because ultimately that is what South Africa has now become known for is that we're one of the few countries in the world, maybe the only one that's got a court mandated constitutional right to grow and consume cannabis at home and that is the market that we mostly support and then also you've seen what happens in South Africa with all these clubs opening up and where we've got home growers now growing into some sort of a formal industry and we also support a lot of those growers with not only plants also nutrients we buy nutrients in bulk and decant and supply smaller quantities at a very good price other grow inputs but mostly through our active network our whatsapp groups are this self Operating organism where people really get good advice. We share lots of pictures people are really involved every day in creating a community around growing of cannabis and and that is was a byproduct of what we did but has become probably our biggest I don't want to call it an asset, but yeah, maybe an asset is the community that we've built all our club members and and Also the fact that we know that we're responsible for quite a lot of cannabis to go into good hands where growers would take our plant and they would harvest X amount of cannabis for it and it would go probably to good users and that also just makes us feel good.
undefined: Well, you're doing a great job from what I've observed. It's been awesome to get the tour today. You took me out to a 2,000 hectare farm.
undefined: We were out in a town called Chatsworth. But if you say that, nobody would even know that it's a town like that in the Cape. I mean, because there's a Chatsworth in KZN. That's quite well known. So it's close to Marmosbury. It's in the Zwartland. very dry, arid area, winter rainfall area where I've got just a deal with a black farmer there who was the land owner of the farm where we share the land and we share the crop and we share resources and we find a good way to cooperate because like I explained to you earlier I don't much believe in land ownership Actually, and we can make an argument probably against white land ownership in this country if we want to, and I prefer to rather just take hands of those who legitimately own or are rightful owners to the land and take their hands and partner with them. Sure. Because land is only one aspect of agriculture.
undefined: Oh yeah.
undefined: I mean, I can provide all the rest, I just don't have the land, why can't I farm? Right. So I'm quite happy with those kind of arrangements.
undefined: And so we're here at your nursery, where you've got, what did you say, about 200 varieties available here?
undefined: Yeah, we've got about over 200 varieties in the nursery. On our main list, we've got up to about 90. I don't know, on our phenolist, how many are on there?
undefined: On the main list is over 100.
undefined: Over 100, and on the phenolist this year about 80, 70, 80. And then we've got several phenos, so that page goes pages long, I mean, with all the different phenos. Because what we do, it's a bit of a lucky packet thing. We will have maybe, after pre-selection, four nice phenos of a variety or of a strain, and then we put them out to the members. But we just total them up. The member doesn't know which pheno he will get. So it's a bit of a lucky packet thing. And then we start to get feedback back from that. We've got our own feedback as you saw the plants flower here. And by the end of the season, we've got a good idea of which phenos to keep or whether it's even worth keeping that variety. Because also, like I said to you earlier, we believe that every plant we cull or throw away adds value to those ones that we keep. So we've been taught to cull quite hard in the process. So we select for specific traits and we're quite strict around that. We've built up a name for that.
undefined: And so when we were talking earlier, you also mentioned that I guess back in 2018, 2019 you got some hemp CBD strains and that you've been one of the kind of guys as far as genetics here in South Africa, right?
undefined: Yes, I was very lucky in that I got my hands on some early CBD genetics. We've got quite a big network of home healers in South Africa. We've got a whole network of growers, oil makers. and in healers and patients, which is this underground industry, which is actually huge that nobody really knows about. And from that, back then, we didn't know much or the healers didn't know much about specific CBD and THC content and how to isolate and then blend and get the right ratios for healing. So they would look for the ratios in the plant. So you would have a four to one ratio and a one to one ratio and a one to 10 ratio. So now I've managed to get my hands on to plants like that. from that home healing space. And then also we're lucky in that people just gave me seed to try. So I got some CBD seed, CBG seed, like I told you. And then also I got some Chinese hemp seed from a guy. Those big, big nuts. I'll show you the nuts now, which I then started to grow and play with. And I also got my hands on some seed from the Sapa Valley in Vietnam, which is known just for textile, for clothing. Amazing story around it. So I started to play with that and we found some very interesting traits in that, which is very suitable for our environment. So there's, which we're really excited about. And then I'm through the years selected that Chinese variety and it adapted into something that's suitable for our local conditions. So I've actually put those two varieties forward for registration with the Department of Agriculture. They're currently being trialed around the country on eight plots by the ARC, which is our official Agricultural Research Council. So also just testing all these systems and trying to demonstrate what we should be doing and can be done and the potential of the plant.
undefined: Every area that's gonna really move forward with, particularly hemp, I mean, there's cannabis land raise and cannabis strains all over the place, but the hemp market needs to have adaptable genetics that can produce and yield for fiber, for textile fiber construction, or for grain, for the food industry, and then obviously for the CBD side or the CBG side, which I think is more gonna fall outside of the industrial hemp side of things? Yes, it will.
undefined: As long as it's for medicinal or recreational use, it will fall under a different sector. Right. I think we also need to find our space within the existing sectors for this plant. Sure. Look, I think what I found with him, and I'm just going to throw it in here, I've been lucky in that I have got Cure Laboratories, which is a cannabis analytical laboratory. It was the first cannabis-specific laboratory in South Africa that I managed to get professionals together and form that company in, what was it, 2018, 2019, that we opened, so that I can have analytics on hand. And what I've found is that THC really has a protective property in our conditions, that we've got to be more lenient about THC and hemp in South Africa. Because our best varieties are actually those Chinese varieties coming from China pre-2016 when they still ignored THC content in their hemp. As they started to breathe the THC down, we've lost vigor. we've lost protection in our conditions and we just don't get the yield we get from the higher THC varieties. We've done research on our local land traces, we can definitely exceed the yield both in biomass and in seed than what we get from European varieties, even very specific grain varieties like you get from Poland for instance. We still exceed the yield even just on basic field trials in abandoned fields and our test, we still exceed the yield we get from Biela Bresci from Poland for instance. So and those seeds do not contain any THC. The fiber does not contain any THC. It is only in the flower and even the flower is still low THC, you'll get a maximum maybe of 5% THC in there. And that is where I'm excited and where I see a lot of potential. If we can focus our DHC compliance on a product level and allow these varieties, which we have, and we have masses of seed of that already, and to allow that, even if it's just initially, to be utilized in the industrial and in the food space so that we can get this industry off the ground. So yeah, we've been excited. You saw in the field here, we're trialing land races all the time to pick up on their properties and they outgrow anything else, except those varieties from China. We've had huge plants here. I've had plants that went up to 6-7 meters here in this garden, even with our wind and conditions. Wow! Really, really big plants.
undefined: That THC percentage, I know that I've talked to Garth and it's the percentage is going to come out at like 2% is what they're throwing out there now, but I completely agree that it should be on end use. What's in self there's 5% or 10% THC in those varieties that yield the best fiber or the best grain. All that THC is in the flour, so what's the point? When it's induced to the consumer, it doesn't make any difference if it's going into a wall or going into a t-shirt or into flooring or anything like that. But if it's a consumable product that's a food product for let's say a cereal bar or something like that, it's certainly easy enough by the end of manufacturing to have zero THC or 10 parts per million or whatever that might be.
undefined: Yes, and we can spend some money on THC remediation if we need to. There's tech available for that and we can just incorporate into our food industry that if it's necessary we'll remediate the THC
undefined: out and if we have to vault that THC then we can sell it one day we'll do that too i mean but just somehow get it out and the technology is there to do it there for sure there's no question about it and hopefully the south africa will be the one that leads this beating of the drum so to speak because america the u.s canada and europe with this 0.3% just doesn't make sense. And 1% that's out there sporadically, it's like, all right, that's better. 2% is better, but let's just get rid of that THC percentage altogether.
undefined: But what I didn't realize, Morris, is how disruptive this thought is for, for instance, the European and the Canadian industry. We had a strange contingent here, And when we were talking about it, we just saw horror in their eyes because they realized what it could do to the industry. They were very much protected by the low THC industry and the genetics that follows it. And if we all of a sudden flood the market with with material as good as theirs, grown from land traces and we ignore THC, it would disrupt the entire industry. So there is obviously some strong voice against what we're doing too and I think we will meet some political walls and maybe hit more sanctions and tariffs along the way if we push this agenda.
undefined: I certainly understand that I've got friends that have got genetics companies and they spend a lot of money to create genetics that fall within that 0.3% and so if all of a sudden there is no percentage then all that money that they've invested kind of just goes right out the door. I certainly get that side of it. But in the end, why are we regulating nature and plants like that that naturally produce these compounds?
undefined: Yes. I mean, I can turn grapes into wine within two days of the plant. I mean, and there's no restrictions on the growing of grapes. Nobody counts my grapes that I grow in my garden for wine. I mean, we can argue about it, but I think we can make a very, very strong argument that cannabis is definitely less harmful than alcohol. So we call for, if we can, on the agricultural side and on the market side, get at least the same regulations that there currently is for alcohol, we can at least take the industry forward. Because then we will have space for consumption lounges, we will have space for on-sales, we will have space for off-sales of cannabis, and we could fit the medical space parallel to that. So yeah, that's what I've been sort of calling for, but that is too much to ask from government. At least see it as booze.
undefined: Well, we've been making that argument as well. Hopefully, at some point in time, we'll get there. But as we deal with governments, whether that's this government or the US government or European Union or wherever it might be, we continue to run up against obstacles and brick walls. And someday, someday the change will be there. But I appreciate everything that you're doing out here. I look forward to getting to know you better and coming out here and spending more time and hopefully be part of this burgeoning industry, because I truly love it out here.
undefined: I'm glad you fell in love with our country. We're not going anywhere. We're staying. I've been very patriotic to the land. We've got a very diverse people in the country and it's sometimes difficult to find your own people within that. But we love the land and we're not going anywhere.
undefined: Well, there's been a lot of open arms welcoming me and Paul Benham when we were out here, a lot of great stakeholders, a lot of great people that are in this space trying to do the right thing, great activism. There seems to be some good political people in position two who really support this and Again, the people have been awesome out here. I don't think you're gonna see a large amount of people refugees trying to go to the United States with all the Political hoopla that's going on. So I think that's just a big bunch of noise when it's all said and done But thanks again, and I look forward to hanging with you more And I'm sitting here with Trenton Birch from the Chiba Cannabis and Hemp Academy in Johannesburg, South Africa. How are you doing today?
undefined: I'm good, I'm good. It's nice and hot here, as you can imagine, Johannesburg. They say Johannesburg has some of the best weather on the entire planet.
undefined: Yeah, I was hanging out with Cliff yesterday and he's like, it's kind of like LA for like seven or eight months of the year. Yeah, it's just no beach. No beach. But you can always just take a two hour flight to Cape Town and you got beach.
undefined: Absolutely. Plenty of beaches.
undefined: You got plenty of beaches in South Africa. Yeah, lots of beaches. So why don't you let folks know what you're doing here in South Africa and a little background and all the cool potential stuff that could be coming down the pipe.
undefined: Yeah, it's a fascinating time for you to be out at the moment, you know. This year we really believe will be a tipping point for the industry. Hasn't been an easy journey as it is everywhere I guess, you know. You guys have lived through it properly. But yeah, so we run Africa's kind of leading cannabis and hemp academy. We've been going for over five years. Just received after Four long painful years of applying for accreditation just received our accreditation So we are now a higher education institution. So we're the first of its kind on the African continent And we teach the whole supply chain, you know We teach everything from by tenders to doctors to cultivators literally the entire supply chain a lot of people think that the cannabis industry is an agricultural industry and Well, that is the catalytic part of it. If you look at the downstream opportunities, you look at just medicine, you look at, you know, fiber, fabric, etc. for hemp, it's just so much more than that. So we make sure we focus on teaching people about the supply chain because that's what we need. We need people to understand that everything works, not just the cultivation side. And then we run a consultancy. So we help build medical farms, we help catalyze hemp projects, we've worked across the DRC, Democratic Republic of Congo, we've worked in Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Malawi, so we're working a lot more with other African countries as well as they start to develop. So it's an exciting and crazy time to be here.
undefined: I've been incredibly impressed. First going to Kenya and kind of seeing where things are at there, which is not even at the starting line, really. I haven't legalized anything. And then coming here and seeing where things are at. I've known Tony Budden for a long time and him for him. And Tony came and spoke at one of my conferences back, I don't know, 2016 or 2017. and I know that there's been things going on here and you guys have been growing and cultivating cannabis for hundreds of years and you've got thousands of farmers that are your indigenous farmers and there's been a struggle with the policy side but it does seem like there's regulations that have been written that should be getting implemented here within the next month or two months or shortly.
undefined: Let's say the next few weeks. Let's hold the government accountable for delivering what they said they would. We were told by the end of the financial year we would have policy on the table, or extended policy on the table on top of what we have. So come the end of this month, I will be making some phone calls if we don't.
undefined: Well, it does seem like from what I've heard that the policy and the regulations that are getting put into place seem more friendly than any other place that I've been, United States, Canada, Europe, Asia, which should give you a global advantage, one might say, at least for developing the local market before the export market really kicks in?
undefined: Yeah, I think the challenge we've had at the moment is that there is no local markets, you know, from a legal perspective. Yes, the cannabis clubs are popping up all over the place. That is still a grey area. But, you know, it's taken a lot of time to get the momentum in the industry and to get legislation over the line. But we started this process five, six years ago when the Cannabis for Private Purposes Act was put on the table, which basically allowed to decriminalize cannabis for personal use and personal consumption, personal cultivation in a private space. So that led to grow stores just exploding. Those have all consolidated now and also led to cannabis clubs opening up. There have been various court cases with cannabis clubs, but no one has actually been prosecuted. So they are just popping up like wildfire, as you've seen on your journey here. So the reality is that the recreational market is massive globally, but there's always that denial. People are happy if it's hemp and it's medical, but the minute it's recreational or responsible adult use, as we try to call it for the prohibitionists, there seems to be a bit of a negative connotation towards it. But if you look at the statistics in the States in terms of how people are switching from alcohol to cannabis, it's fascinating. So the market is growing and from an African perspective, you know, I get tired of countries and politicians that sort of push the recreational thing to the side because, you know, in my personal opinion, it's pretty much fact, you know, cannabis is a lot less destructive for society than alcohol. So, you know, we've got to move those things forward. We need to, especially in this country where we have, you know, we haven't recovered from COVID, you know, we didn't have a country strategy to pull ourselves out of that. Our economy is taking a pounding. We need Sunrise Industries urgently. You know, cannabis and hemp can really drive massive job creation. We have legacy. It's not like we're just starting out, you know. We really hope government in the next few weeks get this legislation and we can actually just get this industry going because there are so many of us ready to pump.
undefined: I've met several people based on getting introduced to you and you've introduced me to people and several others have introduced me and Paul to just a web of people here in South Africa and it's like there's really a high-level stakeholder group that is just waiting to get this market up and off the ground. Obviously, there's things going, like you said, it's still gray market, but once it becomes legitimate and real and legal, tax revenue jobs, and opportunity for a lot of people, not just on the rec and medical side, but the industrial side. You've got auto manufacturers here, you've got brick factories going in, you've got Wolf who's building, who built the Hemp Hotel, and the one next to it's gonna be eight stories, and the one across the street's gonna be 12 stories. And you've got some really cool projects that are in the pipeline already without even having an operating industry.
undefined: Completely. I mean, as a country, we are an industrialized nation. We're kind of a hybrid of a developed and a developing economy. So we have industrialization here. We have manufacturing, we have big factories, we have large-scale farming, industrial farming. So for us to bring another sort of product into that stream is not difficult. But we need to be capacitated to do that. And without legislation, the challenge is that investors sit on the sidelines. No one wants to put money into something if they think they could lose it because legislation hasn't moved forward. So our biggest challenge at the moment is capital. Because if you look at industrial hemp, as you well know, it takes capital to set up and industrialize if you want to go at scale. You can create a small boutique industry with small foods and fabrics and fibers, but it's a cottage industry. We need to industrialize this. Our land per square meter is much cheaper than in America or in Europe. Our labor costs are cheaper. We have incredible cultivation conditions. Our soil is good if you're cultivating on non-traditional farming land. And our climate is good, you know, and we have people who can grow. I mean, in Pondoland, you know, which is a region in the Eastern Cape, there's an estimated 140,000 hectares of low THC land-raised cannabis. You know, that's 140,000 hectares that can also still be used for industrial purposes as well. And we often talk about the fact that this hemp term, that we all use is misleading because ultimately it's the same plant as we all know. It's the applications and the THC which is the differentiation. So why don't we have a whole plant approach and actually call it industrial cannabis? So we have medical cannabis, recreational cannabis, industrial cannabis. I know, you know, just to make things easier for people to understand, we have this tag of hemp, but there's no reason why the 140,000 hectares can't be used for making bricks, you know, and the stalks can't be used. At the moment, all of our medical facilities, you have to destroy every other part of the plant except the flower. You have to have an incineration certificate. So we're taking all of this biomass that can be used for other things and just burning it, you know. It's just completely, completely nonsensical.
undefined: Yeah, well, that's the way it's been every other part of the world, too. And it's that way in the United States where all the recreational and medical cannabis, that waste material, with the exception of a few pilot programs, it's all getting destroyed. Yeah. Canada has been the same way. And Europe, I assume, is basically the same way. But you can take those waste materials of stocks and the stems and whatever else. And there's technologies out there. And plastic company can take any part of the plant and turn it into a bioplastic filler. And you can turn it into mulch. You can turn it into biochar. You can make it something that's usable that does have some sort of downstream value. And it's ridiculous. You talk about investment setting on the sideline because of the lack of clear regulations. We've seen that in the United States. Our industry blow up after the 2018 Farm Bill. FDA doesn't do anything. We have this oversupply. We got investors sitting on the sideline. We have big companies sitting on the sideline until there's clear regulatory pathway. And that still hasn't happened. And you see our industry collapse. And you see everybody struggling outside of the oversupply then gets converted into these intoxicating cannabinoids. And that just muddies the waters. And you've got our fiber and grain industry that's out there struggling with operators that are short on cash, with the exception of a couple of operators that happen to be well-funded. But you can't make a market and develop an industry with a couple of people that are well-funded and nobody else being able to access money because there's no regulatory clarity.
undefined: Why did, I know in the seeding industry collapsed, obviously there was thousands of hectares of hemp being cultivated, why was there not a pivot from CBD cultivation to industrial cultivation?
undefined: Well, I think at that point in time, most of the farmers really weren't traditional farmers. They were weed bros that got into the CBD business, that contracted with farmers and farmland that, hey, you're going to make an X amount per acre, and we'll just contract your farm. And these farmers that bought into it, and then all of a sudden there's all this excess oversupply. They didn't get paid. They're like, we're out. We're done. hemp has this stain on it because of what happened there and it's super unfortunate and for industrial hemp to happen in the United States we need traditional farmers that are growing corn, soy, wheat, alfalfa, hay as a rotational crop and those are the farmers we need to make it industrialized instead of boutique. So they've been put off by what happened there? Yeah and there's also within the regulations, you have to get FBI background checked. And you're basically criminalized before you even start growing this stuff. And then it's expensive to do the testing. Most all of that should be changed in the next farm bill, which should happen this year, or it could change in a overall comprehensive bill that Trump wants to get done this first half of the year. And they could redefine certain things. We're not exactly sure. We're all still gunning for the farm bill and trying to provide clarity for fit for purpose where if you're going up for fiber and grain. It's not going to have the same requirements if you're growing for cannabinoids and THC levels. If it's being grown for this, it can be visual inspection, maybe a little bit of testing, make sure that THC is not way out of bounds. But if it's being for food and it's being for fiber and walls and stuff like that, it should be treated just like any other ag crop. And I know talking to Garth, it's like, that's what it's going to be here. Him, it's going to be an agricultural crop, and so is cannabis. And it's like, that's the way it should be.
undefined: It should only go into medicine if that's the direction it's going.
undefined: If it goes into medicine, then it's treated as medicine. But all the other parts of the plant, it's just another ag crop. And if you're making bricks or plastics or paper or t-shirts or whatever it might be, whatever the downstream thing is, it's not a consumable product that's meant to create any sort of intoxicating effect, it should be just treated that way.
undefined: Yeah, I mean, sadly I think that cannabis and hemp are one of the biggest travesties of our time, you know, this illegality is just complete, I was going to swear, it's complete rubbish, you know, it's just so obvious, you know, it's such an obvious thing and then I often talk about the fact that We have to consider that for all the benefits of hemp, and all the benefits of cannabis, somebody is non-benefiting, that's the wrong word, but somebody is going to suffer. So then you look at Big Pharma, you look at petrochemical industry, you name them, they don't want this to come online, and we know Big Pharma, they spend millions every year on lobbying.
undefined: All over the world.
undefined: Because if you think logically, there's no logic as to why this is so difficult, there's no logic. So the only logic is, is that people are trying to stop it, aggressively. You see what happened in Germany. Two years ago, we're going to legalize. What happened? They got golden handcuffs, one hand tie behind their back. I think they've only put like 80 or 85 licenses for clubs. So we are at war, you know, and we need to be more outspoken and more aggressive. We need to demand this. Cannabis is the only drug in the history of mankind that was driven by the people. It wasn't given to us by a big pharma. Our voices need to be louder. What I love about you being out here is the fact that we are a global community. and we need to work together as a global community because we are fighting a big force. And the only way we can do that is by uniting and looking at the plant and what this plant can do for our planet and uniting and fighting this force as aggressively as possible. That's kind of my take on it, you know.
undefined: And that's my take as well and generally everybody that's in my ecosystem and your ecosystem. Like you said earlier when we were talking, time's now. We just can't wait any longer.
undefined: No, the time is absolutely now. And anyone that stands in our way, we must just bulldoze through them. But we can't do it alone. So we've got to unify as different countries and learn from each other. Like I'm a big Africanist, and I believe in African solutions for African challenges, but I'm also not naive in the sense that we shouldn't learn from other people. We should collaborate and learn and work together. There's a bigger picture here. Saving the planet is dire, it's a massive problem. If you look at especially HEMP and how it ties into the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, it is our moral obligation and responsibility to work together. globally to shift this. So it's fascinating to see a lot of international interest in our country at the moment, a lot of people coming out wanting to contribute. We need that. We're not naive. We're not anti-people coming and working with us. What we've got to be very careful in this country though is making sure that our cannabis industry is not colonized. and taken over like we have with a lot of other raw products in the past, and also adding value to products here before we ship out. So we need to be smart about it, you know, not just to sort of take the first deal that comes along. We need to take long-term deals that are not going to milk our resources, you know.
undefined: Fortunately, some of those colonizing interests came in here and they all left already.
undefined: Yeah they left already they got burnt and left.
undefined: Yeah it's like they came here lost millions of dollars and it's like all right well we tried that and so now we're out and and hopefully it can now develop with local stakeholders and without a whole bunch of outside influence that's just here to to take everything and lead peanuts for you guys?
undefined: I do believe in the spirit of the plant. Cannabis can be something that you consume every day, every few days, and it doesn't change your mind. You have to plug into what it can do for you. But I do believe that the plant is a special plant. A lot of people that have jumped into this industry just to make money have been spat out. They've lost money, they've disappeared. And some of the people you've met, we are stalwarts of the industry. And the reason being is because we believe in this. We believe in the plant, we believe in what it can do, we believe in it. And I think that's the difference. And we see this constantly, guys jumping in because they think it's the green rush, the gold rush, that's all bullshit. At the end of the day, this is a long game and it needs passion. commitment and those are the people that are still in this industry and I'm not saying we don't need more people to join the industry and I'm not I'm not being exclusive but what's important is that we drive and build and grow together.
undefined: I 100% agree. Well, thanks for all that you're doing here. It's been great to hang and visit. I look forward to coming back here and spending more time and continuing this conversation and working together to do the final thing, and that's get this thing over the finish line. Awesome.
undefined: I look forward to lots of collaboration.
undefined: Yeah.
undefined: Cool. Marcel Morris, thanks.
undefined: All right. Thanks, man. That's a wrap on this special edition of Let's Talk Hemp Volume Up from Cape Town, South Africa. Thanks to Tony, Tanya, Natty, and Trenton for joining me on the show and for showing me wonderful hospitality during my visit. I promise you, I will be back. Before I close out here, I want to mention again that the 11th Annual NOCO Hemp Expo is coming up April 10th through the 12th in Estes Park, Colorado. Everyone in the hemp industry domestically and globally is invited. This is a big year for hemp policy and we want to work on harmonizing a lot of international regulatory pathways so we can trade on international markets. That's fiber, that's grain, and that is cannabinoids. All of the above. Visit nocohempexpo.com for information on tickets, lodging, programming, speakers, exhibitors, and so on. It's all there. Also, another date to have on your calendar is June 11th through the 13th for the 22nd Annual EHA Conference and Experience Hemp Berlin, taking place in Berlin, Germany at the Durant Hotel. EHA, the European Industrial Hemp Association, has been a driving force in advocating for sensible hemp regulations for more than two decades and it is worth your time, if you're in the industry, to join us for this conference. More information on this event can be found at www.eiha-conference.org. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Let's Talk Hemp Volume Up on your favorite podcast platform, leave us a review, and follow us on social media for more hemp industry insights. Until next time, keep advocating, keep innovating, and let's keep the hemp conversation going. Rock on.